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So recently we heard from another local animal sanctuary. They said some of their members had come to them and were expressing outrage at our participating in the ASPCA Challenge when we have spoken out so vehemently against the ASPCA in the past.
Are we hypocrites for being willing to take the ASPCA’s money?
I don’t think so.
YES. We have GREAT issues with SOME of the things that the ASPCA has done – namely, or course, killing Oreo. However, we also strongly support many of their other programs and the progresses they have made in their behalf. Their low or no cost spay/neuter vans have been excellent in NYC – helping countless numbers of animals and helping to prevent more from coming into shelters. Their fighting against puppy mills has been well received and respected, and their pit bull awareness, pit bull programs, and trying to change the image of pits has been a great start in changing the public’s views on these great dogs. There are MANY things they do well and some they do terribly. We always speak out against the things we can’t tolerate and publicly insist that they fix.
The same with Best Friends. We were loud and obnoxious in our attack in regards to them not supporting Oreo’s Law – the number one no-kill sanctuary in the U.S not supporting it??? – and we will continue to be vocal and angry about this until they get the facts straight, stop sending out misleading and incorrect statements, and face the facts that they are WRONG about this issue.
But that DOESN’T mean we won’t work with them. Even after these arguments directed at them, we STILL did the Beagle Rescue with them and saved 120 beagles from a testing lab. We STILL talked to them about helping at Elmsford/Pets Alive Westchester, and if they asked we would CONTINUE to work with them if it meant saving lives.
We will not let politics get in the way of saving lives or helping animals that we have the power to help. But we will always speak out against them, or the ASPCA, or any other organization that we think are wrong. Always. But that doesn’t mean we won’t work with them.
I can even say that PETA, an organization that has completely lost their way and now is more murderer than savior, was actually a critical force in bringing to the public eye the abuses that animals suffer. It is thanks to them, back in the 70s and 80’s that I (and many other people) first learned about real animal issues. So while I can hate what they are doing NOW and the animals they are killing, I can strongly support the violations they uncover and respect how much they have done to get the public aware of the atrocities in our midst.
So people, is it hypocritical to participate in the ASPCA $100,000 Challenge? I do not think so. If their money will help us save more lives, then I am all in. I can certainly respect and appreciate the people that work there and ARE trying and DO make a difference for animals, every day. That get up every day and fight the good fight to change things for the better.
So yes, Pets Alive speaks out against things we see as failures or deviation from their missions statements, but that doesn’t mean we won’t help animals, work with these groups or put our differences aside if it means that we can save more lives.
And hey, there is still a chance that Best Friends, and the ASPCA will see the error of their ways, and support Oreo’s Law. That is really the only major issue we have with them, but again – that does NOT mean we wouldn’t step up to the plate and help if they asked us, nor do I expect them to not do the same if we asked them.
The animal welfare community is big enough where organizations like Pets Alive and the ASPCA can disagree on matters of philosophy and still shake hands and share resources and work together toward the same goals – to improve the lives of companion animals. No matter how heated the debate gets we know we are all on the same side.
So now on to the more controversial issue that we are faced with this month.
Should Pets Alive serve any animal products at our fundraisers or events?
This is an issue that we have talked about for many years here. As Pets Alive continues to grow larger, and be looked to more as a leader in the animal movement, it is an issue we need to face, discuss and make a judgment on.
You will not be surprised to learn that this issue is both controversial OUTSIDE Pets Alive, as well as internally. We all have very different opinions.
At Pets Alive our staff is made up of meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans. We have some that believe recycling is critical, leather wearing is unacceptable and of course, I think universal, is that fur is abominable. But yet we also have staff that feels their diet is their decision and should not be dictated. That they do their part for animals when and where they can, and that their diet is a personal choice.
I actually agree with both sides.
At every event we have, we make absolutely sure there is a vegetarian/vegan option. Is that enough? Should our events be entirely vegan?
Let’s play both sides of the argument.
If we decide that is so, then where should we stop?
Should we not allow anyone that wears leather to volunteer here? If you have leather shoes or a belt, should you be sent home?
Well, that sounds absurd, but what if you showed up to volunteer and were wearing a fur jacket? Is THAT the boundary then? Or is it the leather? What about products TESTED on animals? What about medical testing of drugs on animals?
What about our dogs and cats? Should we ONLY feed vegan diets to them? Is it hypocritical to feed them meat based diets as well?
There are so many issues out there, so many things to debate, and so many points to make. Do we fight them all? Do we take a stand on every one of them?
Or do we stick to our mission statement, help as many as we can and hope that the rest of you will do the same as you see fit and live your lives as best you can?
I honestly don’t know. We have talked about this a lot here. Everyone has a different opinion.
We all have eaten meat, do eat meat, or know people that eat meat. Are they horrible people? Do we have a right to dictate to them how they should live their lives? Or do we respect that they are here, doing their part in any way that they can – and be very happy that thy are?
One time in the past we were attacked by members of an animal rights list, in regards to this issue. Many said they would no longer support us if we continued along this path.
Every one that complained, I looked up in our database. There was not even a single one that had ever donated a dime here, or spent even a day volunteering here. So to me, they are discounted. I’m sorry, but they are. However, if you, our loyal readers and supporters feel differently then let us know. Are we making a mistake? Should we change this policy? We want to hear from you. We respect YOUR opinion. YOU are our life force and YOU are our supporters. We are here because of you and when YOU talk to us, we will listen.
We also don’t want to lose site of our mission statement and our goals. We can’t take on and tackle all the animal issues that exist out there. We do our best to tackle the ones we can.
We hope that those of you that are perhaps more enlightened in this area, will take the time to discuss and share why you feel the way you do with others at our events. Pets Alive certainly applauds those whose lifestyle does not include eating animals, but currently our policy is that we don’t feel that we have the right to tell people what to eat. For those who are vegetarians and vegans there will ALWAYS be appropriate food at all of our fundraisers.
We welcome you all. Vegans. Vegetarians. Meat eaters.
I’m not so sure you fur wearers would be well received though. 🙂
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This is a great blog, Kerry!
Balance is the key and your blog is balanced on the issues.
I see nothing wrong with selling meat based meals at events as long as you equally serve vegan and vegetarian as well. (no foie gras obviously) Agreed on the fur wearing too, I think we all know how cruel that is. If someone came to volunteer wearing a fur, turn them down? No, just explain your views and kindly ask them to refrain from wearing it as not to offend anyone. A reasonable person would comply and agree. Dogs by nature are carnivores, same as many other of the animals you care for, so feed them what they need. I agree that diet and the wearing of leather is a personal choice, especially since the leather (as far as I know) is the by product of the meat industry, the skins, and the animals are already dead for food consumption and not killed simply for the leather hides. But to each his own. Taking money from the ASPCA, no problem, same as Best Friends. You can still be friendly with other organizations that do good even if you disagree in other areas and issues. Don’t alienate but educate. Great Blog!
I think that the buying and serving of meat and dairy and eggs in this day and age means something different. In the past we could say: you are not horrible if you eat meat because you don’t know what is going on behind those walls. But now – everyone knows. Everyone sees. No, I don’t think you should police people on a daily minute basis, but your benefit is an amazing opportunity to enlighten people to the joys of this kind of cuisine and the HUGE impact it will have if they turn more towards a plant-based diet… it is one meal. One meal where people adopt a diet in solidarity with the animals they claim to love and support. It is an educational opportunity, as well as a health opportunity. The fact that this would be controversial or sensitive or whatever is so sad. The latest Mercy for Animals Undercover video – of cows abused at a dairy company – – is the most horrific I have ever seen. Here it is. As Jonathan Safran Foer put it so well: “now you cannot claim ignorance, only indifference. ”
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/calves/
No animals is harmed at a vegan benefit dinner – how could anyone of your supporters or staff not get behind that opportunity? How could anyone argue against the hugeness of that simple but amazing gesture.
Thanks for the post. The HSUS has over 500 employees, and it is not anywhere close to being an all-vegan organization. But it does have a vegan policy for any events hosted by the HSUS. They do this for two reasons. 1) They have an obligation to protect animals; that is what it’s donors pay them to do. If they take that money and spend it on hurting animals it flies in the face of its mission and runs completely contrary to the wishes of its donors. 2) It creates a wonderful opportunity to showcase plant-based alternatives in the marketplace – something they spend a great deal of time and resources cultivating.
I’d simply ask that you revisit this line from your blog: “Or do we stick to our mission statement, help as many as we can and hope that the rest of you will do the same.” You actually are in a very powerful position to help a great deal of animals right here, right now – something you most certainly “can” do. Any other choice is absolutely electing to do the contrary. There are so many non-animal options. The VegFund even provides money and resources for making these things happen.
Finally, I have to make a small comment to Linda from her previous comment: “I see nothing wrong with selling meat based meals at events as long as you equally serve vegan and vegetarian as well. (no foie gras obviously)”. Why is this so “obvious”? Why do ducks get a pass, put chickens and cows don’t.
Although I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years, I don’t feel I have a right to tell other people they cannot eat meat.
However, I do see the logic in a no-kill shelter not serving meat at their functions. People attending can get their hamburger on the way home if they really need meat and not serving meat at a function really conveys what Pets Alive stands for.
I totally agree with the NO fur policy in anyway!!! It is just barbaric!!!
Rebecca and Chris, I definitely do see your point but it doesn’t address the question I don’t think. Let me perhaps clarify better. While this does showcase the opportunity to show kindness to all animals, why is it different from then also requiring no one to wear leather heels or leather jackets to our fundraisers? Why is it different from when people come to the sanctuary us saying (and doing of course) that we only feed vegan food to the dog and cats as well. Doesn’t that ALSO do the same as you are saying above?
My point is that i DO see your point but I don’t see how it differs from doing all these other things as well. Requiring no staff wear leather to any event (or fur) or wash their hair before they come with something that might have been tested on animals.
How is it different?
And truly, in case you think I am being sarcastic, I am not. I am quite interested in your replies and as I said, we have gone round about this for some time.
I also appreciate that you post politely and respectfully. It helps to have a true dialogue about this.
Thanks, everyone, for chiming in on this. Hopefully this will help to up the ethics of those working in animal welfare. I do loathe all this “diet is a personal choice” bit. How much personal choice was granted the cows chicken and fish being served? I’ve yet to see an animal choose to be slaughtered. Also, framing it merely as a matter of choice sets up a false moral equivalent, as if guests will be choosing between chocolate or vanilla, boxers or briefs. These are not equally valid menu choices; these are choices between life and death. Pet’s Alive is missing the opportunity to model ethically preferable behavior. Regarding the matter of “dictating” – well, pardon me, hogs, but that is hogwash. This is one meal; one meal being served in the name of animals. No one is telling others what (or who) they may or may not eat. It is a very different matter, ethically, for an animal welfare organization to actually provide meat and encourage guests to eat animals. When coming together to celebrate the rescue and ongoing lives of animals it is hypocrisy of the most base and cruel sort to serve up animal carcasses on the very plates purchased to save them.
-Jim V, animal advocate and guardian to two healthy, happy, rescued vegan dogs
It is interesting that so far all the people that say we should be offering only vegetarian food are all newcomers. have never posted here before and I have to approve the posts. So that implies to me that they are not our supporters. While that doesn’t make me completely disregard their opinions and I welcome the input here, ultimately it is the voice of our own supporters and volunteers that matter most to us here.
people are made to thrive eating meat. I’d prefer meat was not living before… but I love me some burgers.So, while I understand their stance, I am still a proud meat lover.
I don’t know where I stand on the issue of only serving vegetarian/vegan food at your benefits. I can see both sides of the issue. Being heavy handed and banning people for wearing leather or washing hair with shampoo tested on animals is not going to help your cause. There are many wonderful organizations out there (I know – I get mail from them pretty much every day) and you have to weed out who to donate to somehow. Implementing a policy that you only want donors who can walk the walk 100% will be an easy way to put you in the no pile – and I really don’t want to do that because I think the work you do is important and I want to help you achieve your goals.
On the other hand – for your fur ball – it’s one meal out of the year. It’s not going to kill me to not have meat every day and as long as the meal is good I wouldn’t have an issue with it. I would prefer not to have it shoved in my face – I know that I should be eating less meat. Making me feel guilty for not having achieved that isn’t that way to make me sit up and say no more me for me. If your fur ball were meat free it wouldn’t change my mind on going if I were planning on going. I don’t do formal though so I won’t be going so take this opinion with that in mind!
If you did decide to make your animals go vegan I would have a problem. Cats are obligate carnivores – they need a 98% meat diet. Vegan/vegetarian is not natural for them. Could you do it? I don’t know – I am not a nutritionist or a vet. I guess if you mix the vitamins and veggie based proteins right it might be possible. But doing that would take so much time/effort/medical expenses (until you figured out the right percentages – if it is even possible) that you would end up helping less animals then you currently do. And that is not a step I could support. I understand that dogs are not as meat dependent as cats are so I guess it would be possible to move them over to be vegans – but again that isn’t a move that I could support. You would have all the same problems as with the cats.
I am also not convinced it would help with the animals in the long term. Let’s face it most animal owners will do the easy thing and buy their pet food already processed. So how would a vegan pet fare once they left your shelter and went into a home where they got Dog/Kitty chow? Would they now how medical issues as they try to digest this new food? Would it cause behavior issues because they don’t know why they can’t have the tofu they are used to?
Personally I see convincing people that they should not eat meat as being beyond your stated goals at this point in time. The meal that you are serving at your event isn’t a factor in whether or not I will attend. You are right in that you can’t fight all the battles out there and I just don’t see this one as one that you should be picking right now. If, on the other hand, you were primarily for farm animals then I would have a different opinion!
Daniela
I must reply to Chris to explain. Ducks are force fed through a tube, cruelly, unnaturally to enlarge their livers. (and yes, I know of the horrors of factory farming of chickens and cows, I do Not condone it) But if a cow or chicken is farm raised locally, killed quickly without suffering, yes in my opinion that is acceptable. (this is clearly outlined in the Hebrew scriptures as acceptable by God) I know this is a very emotional issue for many. When Pets Alive put on an event and they choose to put out a vegetarian meal, it would not be an issue to me on whether I would attend or not. I am not a big meat eater anyway.
And to Jim, as I respect you opinion and choice of food for yourself, that same respect should be given to others who differ in opinion. There is a difference in animals. Companion animals are not for food, hence the name, farm animals are for food. You and others may not agree, that is you choice and that is fine. But I am not going to debate you
about what you feel is ethically preferable behavior.
I thank you for writing this. I have to admit that at first I was a bit shocked that you would participate in this contest. I wanted to support you but I was embarrassed almost to do so since I had been so verbal on Facebook about the stupidity of the ASPCA and their treatment of Oreo. (Trust me, I was very out spoken) But then after some thought I came to the same decision as you did. Why not participate in the contest and take the money if you are lucky enough to win it. So I got my butt busy on Facebook, Care2 and with personal emails. I am frustrated because we do not know yet where you fall in the top fifty. The last I heard you were 46. I wish you all the best and think you made the right decision. As far as the other comments I believe it is a personal decision and must be respected no matter what a person decides as long as they do all they can to support the welfare of animals in general. I am a meat eater but I am not proud of it. It is the way I was raised and I find it to difficult to give up. Thank you for all you do. I look forward to helping in whatever way I can in the future.
Don’t believe I have ever commented here before but I do hope to get out there one day. I just wanted to say the difference between serving a vegan/vegetarian meal at the celebration and the banning of leather wearing volunteers is that one meal you serve is offered to the person to take or leave. You are not following them home to police their kitchen for signs of meat.
You are not impinging on their personal life, in other words. As you would be if you banned volunteers in leather. Seems pretty simple but it’s your shelter, your party and your choice. You do good work, that’s the main thing to me.
First time poster, long time follower. This is your event, serve the food you feel is best. Iam a meat eater, but have no issues going to dinner with my sister,who is vegan, and having what she wants. You are only serving 1 meal, it shouldn’t deter any body from supporting you.
Kerry, I do eat meat, but I think Pets Alive’s fundraisers should serve vegetarian food. Maybe this makes me a hypocrite, but there just seems to me something very inconsistent about raising funds to help certain animals, while serving others for dinner. I know what you mean about people wearing leather, etc., but I don’t believe the fact that they make these personal choices should preclude Pets Alive from making it’s own personal choice about what will be served at fundraisers. There are so many wonderful, non-meat options, that I find it hard to believe anyone would be upset or disappointed with this decision. It wouldn’t be a question of anyone trying to convert the guests, and I have to believe that Pets Alive’s supporters would totally understand the logic behind it.
Do people really go to fundraising dinners for the “dinner”? I say provide plenty of drinks (some non-alcoholic–a whole ‘nother discussion). And nibbles. The nibbles could be vegan-vegetarian (from what I’ve researched, vegan is hard, though doable). Have lots of good music and dancing (for those who are allowed to do so!).
I suspect that many of us who follow Pets Alive and do eat meat and wear leather do feel guilt about the hypocrisy of what we do in our day to day lives. Yes, we are not ignorant, and yes we may seem indifferent. Believe me, we are not indifferent, but overwhelmed by the contradictions in our lives and the difficulty that some of us would have in making the changes that we may inherently know could be made. I applaud those of you have made a commitment to a completely cruelty-free life–but have you really? Do you use plastics? Residues from those are killing animals in the oceans. What about your use of fossil fuels–got a car? Do you buy only clothes and household items that are definitely produced in living-wage, safe factories? Or is there a chance that the things you are wearing now were produced in places where child-labor is used? It’d be really easy to find that almost everything we do in a day impacts someone, something negatively.
I don’t really have an answer about the food issue. I can’t really believe that supporters are going to an event just for the food. I’d serve whatever I wanted and not worry too much about it. If people hated the food, they’d let you know. I’m sure the CASantuary could give pointers about a vegan menu for fundraising events. And probably the food would be a great success.
I’d think though that feeding the dogs and cats at the shelter a vegan or vegetarian diet would be a huge problem. Anyone chiming in here who is not familiar with Pets Alive might not realize what a shoestring budget you have already. Trying to provide a special diet (non-commercial pet food) would be an incredible expense. You wouldn’t be able to rescue many animals at all if you switched, and the need for rescues like yours is so great that any decrease in numbers of animals you could take in would be tragic.
The good news is that the horses and goats are vegans!
An answer to Kerry: first, thank you so much for this respectful dialogue – I do understand your point of view – – simply, because it used to be my stance as well before I worked with farm animals and learned more of what they go through.
I think someone else answered eloquently enough but in my own words: There is indeed a difference between the world your organization creates – the table you set – at your benefit, and the “policing” of what people do in their homes and personal lives (i.e. getting dressed in the morning to go out, and having a leather belt on or leather shoes.) There is a logical differentiation. One is where you as an organization are living being the example – and also helping educate other well-meaning animal lovers – – that a truly cruelty-free world is not only possible, but a yummy and beautiful one – – whereas the other choice involves dictating to people what their decisions should be outside the confines of the work your organization does. Maybe this will seem a hyperbolic example but – would you go to a benefit for an organization working to end child slave labor, and want underage children waiting on the tables or working the kitchen? Of course not… even though you couldn’t stop people from showing up in clothes that might have been made in a sweatshop. You are showing a world where your organization makes decisions that are ethically balanced and aligned wherever possible.
I agree that heavy handedness is not helpful. And apologies, I have not been a financial supporter of your organization but this dialogue brought the AR community in… As an animal rights activist since age 11 (for over 30 years) I have walked a lot of weary miles and just got to the point where I put my energy and humble dollars into organizations that help all animals, because my personal evolution and explorations and research led me to conclude without doubt they were all deserving of help and compassion. I started out as a city kid working in cat and dog shelters and a staunch vegetarian, because that is what I knew and what I was exposed to. But unlike a lot of my urban peers, I sought to leave familiar surroundings and meet and work with other animals not found in the city, and I was horrified, but grateful for the insight ultimately, to learn that animals for milk and eggs suffer so much more than I could even comprehend. So I went vegan. All vegans share one profound thing – we were almost all vegetarian “animal lovers” who realized we needed to move to the next level (few were instantly vegan, though I know one or two highly enlightened folks who made that kind of leap.)
It is your organization and your decision, but I think I can speak for some of us at least in saying we chime in not to be divisive but to share and make this dialogue… because we ourselves are so grateful that someone stepped up at some point in our lives to make the same points to us. Thank goodness someone gave me the information so I could stop the behavior that was causing so much suffering. These are life-changing and profound gifts of insight that you give your supporters. It is not a bad thing to ask people to go vegan for one meal – – it is the door to truly being the compassionate, conscious animal rescuers and animal lovers that so many in their hearts are striving to be. It is about education, that is all. Thanks for the dialogue, and I wish you the best in your work helping animals, each day!
My personal opinion is that the individuals donating to the ASPCA donated to help the animals. If you win the prize and apply the funds directly to the animals, then there should be no conflict.
We all are involved with organizations/governments/individuals that we don’t agree 100% with, but that does not make them bad. The ASPCA, HSUS, AHA, Best Friends, and even PETA are all resources available to animal welfare groups. My personal philosophy is that we should take advantage of all the opportunities available and use them in the way that follows our organization’s mission.
I worked as a consultant for our county Board of Health reviewing many of their policies and ordinances. I quoted ALL of the major animal welfare groups (along with Nathan Winograd and the No Kill Advocacy Center) to address different issues throughout the report.
My point is, the resources are for the animals. If you are fulfilling the grant requirements, you are using the money for what it was intended for.
By the way, I alternated daily between voting for you and one of our local groups. 😉
Kerry, as others have said, thanks for this great dialogue. To address your question to me: “why is it different from then also requiring no one to wear leather heels or leather jackets to our fundraisers?” It is as simple as this: Pets Alive does not buy the leather jackets for its guests, but it will be taking money from it donors and buying meat from animals killed through a very horrible process – regardless whether it is a local farm or factory farm. Every dollar a consumer spends on a good product or a bad product he/she is casting a vote that says ‘good job, I approve’. Pets Alive is not only casting that vote but loudly telling all its donors how it voted. It is one meal. Just one meal. Every year HSUS holds several gala events for up to 1500 people – all vegan, all amazing. It is REALLY not as big a deal as people are making it. They have had this policy for nearly 7 years and the events get bigger and better every single year.
Linda, just to clarify, I am well aware of how foie gras is produced. It is horrendous. And you can make the same arguments about any other animals produced for food. That’s why I think it is odd to simply toss that out as obvious.
(and since Linda brought up religion) While I am not religious, and am pretty sure that most animals do not follow Hebrew doctrine, I think that William Ralph Inge stated it best:
“We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form. ~ Outspoken Essays, 1922
Although I haven’t been around the Pets Alive community much in a while, I am a long-time supporter. Thanks so much for opening this thoughtful and mature conversation Kerry!
I have to agree with Rose on this one. Fundraisers and events that are run by Pets Alive should follow your no-kill philosophy. Pets Alive was always a place where cats, dogs, cows, pigs, goats, chickens, horses and even emus were given sanctuary. To serve ANY of these creatures on a plate in order to raise funds to save these creatures is, indeed, hypocritical. The menu is the choice of the organization — not the participants.
With that said, what products the participants wear, eat, and use in their daily lives are their individual choices, and the organization should not dictate there. (However, a kind suggestion would not be inappropriate).
Kerry and Pets Alive have to pick their battles. The most important ones are not for the people in the organization, but the animals in the organization. ALL decisions that Pets Alive has the power to make should be made in spirit of its no-kill mission, or why even bother having a no-kill mission?
Kerry,
Let me apologize in advance to everyone who will find my comments offensive. I will be attending the fur balls and I will be disappointed if there is nothing to eat except vegan food. I am open to vegan and vegetarian food and enjoy it thoroughly but not exclusively. However, I don’t attend the balls just to give money. I can and do give money and support to PA without going anywhere. Shoot me if you need to for my selfish attitude but I go to the balls both to support PA and to have fun. I don’t think I would have fun at the ball enduring PA’s quiet and not so subtle condemnation of my meat eating habits (should PA decide to go exclusively vegan)for what should be my personal choice (eating meat) until a law says otherwise. Cruelty to animals is illegal, eating them is not. And yes, Honor, some of us do go for the FOOD and company. We don’t get out much. I am not going to argue the morality of eating or not eating meat. Both sides have valid arguments. Nor am I going to argue about where the line should be drawn. Kerry has already taken care of that argument admirably. I am merely trying to say that like it or not meat eaters outnumber vegans and if you make us feel like crap, we’re not coming to the parties and maybe not providing other types of support. How many people (individuals) do you think that you can criticize as being cruel, then ask them for money, and actually expect to get support from them? How many animals do you think that will help?
Nature, left alone without human interference, is in complete balance. What do wild animals eat? Some animals eat other animals, that is instinct. That is how they were created. Others eat only grasses, etc. and some species eat a variety of plant and animals. Are what the animals doing in the wild considered cruel? So it is perfectly okay for animals to eat other animals, but not for humans to eat a chicken or an egg? And why is everyone criticizing me, others here have said they eat meat. I would love to know if all the vegans and vegetarians are pro-life when it comes to humans? Do you back the country’s military and wars? Because a yes to either of these would make you hypocrites. Do any of you take medications for a health condition? Should you ban folks from attending for that since medications are tested on animals? I think people are going a bit overboard here as to the responsibilities of Pet’s Alive and what they should or should not do. Do you start asking the women what brand of make up they wear since many test on animals? Do you only buy Organic Products? If not, you are hypocritical also because the chemicals used on non organic products are tested on animals. Where do you draw the line? Now you want to change nature and feed dogs and cats vegan diets?
As stated before, serving a vegan/vegetarian meal at their fundraiser would Not be a problem for me.
typo: correction in my previous post, if you are pro-choice but are a vegan you would be a hypocrite
No we are not hypocrites, Linda – because the animals have (brace yourself here): absolutely no choice. And we are not hunters and gatherers. Terrible horror is committed in “our name” as humans on a scale that has nothing to do with actually killing for food we need to survive… we are killing animals on a scale never before seen for excess food, for gluttony, and we are doing it in ways that involves long term suffering and chains of suffering that are diabolical. No animals in nature do this to others: keep other animals for years at a time in states of suffering to use them as products. We have to evolve higher. Just because at one time, neanderthal behaviour was condoned, doesn’t mean we should all stay in that state.
I certainly respect all opinions, but your argument has no logic. Are you saying: ignore the screams and cries of the beings you know you are causing the suffering of, because, well, you aren’t stopping all the suffering in the world? This is something we can all so easily STOP, and the beauty part is: we wouldn’t starve. We wouldn’t die. We wouldn’t suffer for probably 5 minutes. We would most certainly all: be more healthy, lose weight, stop diabetes and many cancers, clean our water supply, and more.
Please do more studying before you condemn veganism or get defensive. This is not a dialogue calling everyone who eats meat immoral. This is a dialogue about a group whose mission is to save as many animals as they can. This is really specific.
Some very important links you should read before you criticize vegans any further. This is the stuff we work on, heart and soul, every day:
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/calves/
http://woodstocksanctuary.org
The very marvelous and educated Dr. Milton Mills – he is so wonderful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFROlwe-m3Y
I will say – I find Tanana’s comments not offensive, but just hard to comprehend. This is one meal, a meal where you get to save more animals. I guess I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around the disconnect – – that this one version you have in mind of fun and drinks is more important than the suffering of such dear beings – cows, chickens, that your donated dollars are also intending to help (?)… That somehow harmed by joining with others in one vegan feast you would feel this dampens the party. I would work past that. All of life is not judgement, it is just options and choices. I can’t see anyone thinking that attending a benefit with a vegan meal is a judgement. It is an opportunity to learn more about amazing healthy cuisine, more about animals, more about a lot of things. You have used your post to condemn vegans as hypocrites when in truth, it is the other way around. Vegans are striving to be highly conscious. No one can be perfect – – and we know, death is natural – -but murder and torture are not, and that is where the public needs to rise up and be a little more educated and aware.
Best regards,
Rebecca
p.s. the same could be said, by the way, about pro-lifers who eat eggs or meat. We could cast the same dispersions. But the problems of our animal friends are so vastly different from the problems and choices we humans create for ourselves.
to all- in reference to the above quote:
“There is a difference in animals. Companion animals are not for food, hence the name, farm animals are for food.”
SAYS WHO??
(Hint: I don’t think it was the animals.)
The whole point of our movement is that we don’t agree with these ‘differences’ created by humans.
At one point in our country, it was someones personal decision to own slaves, and people argued the differences between the races based on intelligence and even physical stature. We do the same thing with animals. People refuse to recognize that pigs and chickens are very intelligent animals, and if put into an academic decathlon, would probably beat out your Fido, so you should just eat him. Oh that’s right, he’s your ‘companion?’
Companion may refer to: A friend or acquaintance you associate yourself with.
Have you ever tried to associate yourself with a ‘farm’ animal? Really had a sit down, soulful chat with a pig, chicken or cow. Probably not, it’s more convenient to not know your food. Or maybe just to make an exception for that 1 sweet cow who ‘got away,’ but the rest of them behind closed doors are fair game.
The Pets Alive logo includes ‘farm’ and ‘companion’ animals; implying you mean to help them all “by any means possible.” It IS hypocritical to serve any of those animals- maybe you should serve opossum or skunk? Aren’t they considered ‘pests’ by our ever-categorizing society. Maybe since this dinner will include half of the animals represented on the logo, your next dinner should include the other half, parakeet pot pie and dog stew anyone? Oh- does that sound horrible? well it is just as horrible when insensitive humans compare the lives of sentient beings as if they were different.
I also have to agree with the thought about the dinner just being a dinner, the dinner is just a bonus to awesome Karma points. That Karma is totally canceled out if you make a donation to save one kind of animal by killing another.
IF people really want to eat meat at this dinner, have them bring a butcher knife.
I have suggested eating your dog, opossum, skunk or parakeet in this comment, but I will have you know I am just a very sarcastic vegan. I share my home with 26 animal friends including dogs, pigs, goats, cats, rabbits and chickens. I was an active supporter when Pets Alive was being revamped, even helping find homes for animals through my former employer. I’ll save you the trouble of looking me up, I have not made any recent donations to Pets Alive, but I also have my own animal rescue.
I do not hunt but I have lived in the some of the worst areas of Appalachia. Some of those people would not be able to feed their children if they did not garden and hunt. It’s called subsistence living. It’s the way I grew up. People are omnivores, like it or not. We need nutrients contained in meat. Those nutrients can be obtained in other ways but only at great (comparatively) expense and effort. This debate is not simple and can’t be solved with glib answers. I applaud vegans but really, you want the impossible from many people. If any of you had been dirt poor white trash like I have, you would know what I am talking about.
I was quite poor, the city equivalent (grew up on a drug block surrounded by mcdonalds and street violence) actually but that is irrelevant. Believe it or not, I have a lot more respect for people who hunt TO SURVIVE than I do for those who drive over to the stop and shop and pull flesh out of plastic packages. But that is not the issue, TM and thanks for conversing. Again, what does any of that have to do with this event that is a specific celebration of saving animals? I am not being glib. Glib would mean I post one flippant comment and disappear. We are taking the time to make this an intelligent conversation. And actually – on a positive note – I now believe anything is possible. When I went veg decades ago vegan was not even talked about and being vegetarian made you a freak. Now, Disney World has kicked out McDonald’s in Florida and replaced it with Babycakes, a vegan bakery! Things are going on now that people 30 years ago thought were impossible so now I know it can happen: all the animals will be freed from this horrific system we have created. I hate to tell you but I know a lot of people in upstate NY who might fit the description you referred to yourself as (though I find “poor white trash” to be a term I would not ever use) who have found their way to a veg diet. They don’t consider it a punishment or hard. It is just a separate set of choices… it takes getting some education, but this is an education that was not available to anyone – rich or poor, so to say being poor absolves you from caring about this just rings hollow. None of this was taught to any of us in schools. We are doing what humankind does best – evolve – learning what is done to animals for food now and changing. There is nothing close to nature about the way people are eating now. I urge you to watch the Mercy for Animals footage I posted above as a link in a comment and consider: this is done with your dollars that people use to buy milk or meat. And the Dr. Milton Mills footage before you comment further. We are all victims – – no, the animals are victims – of a slant in education that reduced animals to nothing but products, and denied us all the right to decide for ourselves – – but there is ample science, a wealth of information, to say that meat and dairy is actually not the optimum diet, but the source of most of our modern day illness. This is an invitation – the dinner should be an invitation – – to for one night be conscious of the effects of your actions and make a different choice.
In retrospect, I really shouldn’t have commented on the food issue at all, as I don’t go to the fundraisers and haven’t even worked the issue of vegan-vegetarian-meat eating out for myself. I need to quell my impulse to jump into a debate when I’m not particularly well-informed on the subject at hand
Having said this, I have found this to be an interesting and well-reasoned discussion overall. Nice to be involved however peripherally in an organization that invites everyone to express their opinion and defend their point of view. I think inclusion is ALWAYS good.
Rebecca,
I greatly respect your opinion and wasn’t at all referring to YOU or anyone in particular as glib. You want to change the world and you’ve started with yourself. I think that’s outstanding and I applaud you.
I was referring to the entire argument by everyone as glib because it fails to take into account all of the issues that will result from the transition from meat eating to veganism.
Let’s say eating meat became illegal today just for the sake of argument. I don’t have the exact numbers but that just put hundreds of thousands of people out of work. Possibly more. Having an idea is great but implementing the idea is just not that simple. There would be many other major problems as well but for the sake of brevity I won’t list them all. Being poor does not absolve one from caring, but it does absolve people from choosing options they can’t afford and may not understand (you realize that poverty and lack of education go hand in hand, right?). One of the options it limits is what one can afford to eat. Wild game is free (in season and with a license) and country people have dirt and save seed from previous harvests. Growing up poor in the city has its own challenges but one of the solutions is NOT having a cow, a few chickens, and a garden. That is already illegal or impractical.
You used the perfect word, evolve, and evolution doesn’t occur overnight.
What does that have to do with serving meat at the fur balls or any fundraiser by an animal shelter, you ask? I do not go to a ball for a lesson or a class (although I get one whether I like it or not everytime I hang with vegans). I really think there are more appropriate ways and times to teach people kindness to animals (and you haven’t persuaded me yet that raising and killing animals humanely to eat is cruel). I can tell you right now with complete honesty I go to parties to have fun and I don’t find it at all fun to be told overtly or covertly that I am a cruel animal abuser. Also, you may describe the event as a “specific celebration of saving animals” but it is also a FUNDRAISER and insulting people is NOT a good way to raise funds.
Now, I am going to be extreme. If PA wants me to not eat meat, they need to clean up their own backyard first. I am not talking about the occasional event they put on. I am talking about every meal eaten by every board member and every last paid staff member. I know for a fact that at least one of the board members loves Chick Fil A and I don’t think he eats lettuce sandwiches there. When PA starts imposing standards for me that they themselves don’t follow, that WILL be hypocrisy, and I won’t participate.
I’d like to mention what others already have, that this isn’t really a discussion about eating or not eating meat, although it’s been interesting reading different views on the subject. It’s about whether meat should be served at the very occasional fundraiser. I find it hard to believe that most people go to these events for the food, but rather to support a wonderful cause and have a great time with like-minded people. But having said that, I bet that even those who truly believe they couldn’t live without meat would be pleasantly surprised at all the delicious alternatives, and that they’d leave with a very different concept of what being a vegetarian or a vegan entails.
Thanks, Kerry for hosting this lively, thoughtful and civil discussion. I have noticed that among the meat eaters who have commented here, most have not really addressed the core ethical question of an animal protection group serving up animals on a plate, but have spent rather more words on veganism in general and the lifestyle decisions vegans make. In reading these comments, I’ve seen some mistaken impressions about veganism, which I’d like to help clear up:
“People are made to thrive eating meat”
Our society’s epidemics of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes are pretty clear indicators that we, as a society, are not thriving by eating meat. Conversely, numerous clinical and demographic studies of a plant-based diet have shown that a vegetarian/vegan diet carries many individual and societal health benefits. Please consider reading The China Study by T. Colin Campbell or anything by Drs. Dean Ornish, John MacDougall, Neal Barnard, or Caldwell Esselstyn. Regarding what people are “made to” thrive on eating, consider viewing this video of a lecture by Dr. Milton Mills : http://video.vsh.org/Mills.html. If you’d rather cover the material in seven minutes, try this cartoon by Dan Piraro:
http://www.youtube.com/woodstocksanctuary#p/f/4/05zhL1YUd8Q
On vegan dogs
A few have suggested it is unnatural or perhaps unhealthy to make a companion dog live as a vegan. While we love our companion animals, there is not really much natural about the whole situation. I was once criticized for “imposing my values” on my dogs by making them vegan. Dogs were once wolves. Many thousands of years ago wolf pups were coaxed or kidnapped from their wolf pack and brought into human society. Since then they have been bred into hundreds of different shapes and sizes to comply with the work expectations or mere whims of humans. Dogs now live in human dwellings, following human rules, socializing with few (or even no) other dogs in accordance with human imposed rules. Yet somehow, by changing one food ingredient some drastic boarder has been crossed.
I’ve never seen a companion dog eat a “natural” diet. I’ve known no human guarding to a dog who opens the back door at dusk, pushes Fido out and says, “Good luck on the hunt. See you in the morning.” Rather, humans provide food for their dogs. For the great majority of dogs this means kibble of some sort or another. All kibble is processed, boiled, extruded and baked until it resembles nothing found in nature. The detail of whether the kibble includes some ingredient that was formerly another animal or not can hardly be said to transform kibble into a more or less natural food. Since “nature” has little to do with our companion dogs or their food, I choose to focus on my responsibility to my dogs. I am obliged to provide the with a complete, nutritious, healthful and palatable diet. This can be accomplished easily while sticking with my own vegan values. I feed V-Dog kibble as the base of their diet and augment that with a bit of fresh, home-cooked food. There are now several well-made commercially available vegan kibbles and canned foods on the market.
My current dogs enjoy robust good health. Both are at an ideal weight and have vigor, energy bright eyes and shinny coats. My previous generation of dogs lived to age 17 and 15 on a vegan diet. They both enjoyed great health well into old age.
“Farm animals are for food”
One writer sought to draw a distinction between companion animals and farm animals merely because humans call them either one or the other. While the adjectives differ, the animals themselves are much the same. Cats, cows, dogs, pigs, parrots, chickens and fish are all vertebrates with complex nervous systems and brains. They all think and feel. To separate them into companion or farm groups is to speak of human intentions toward them and does account for their intrinsic worth as being or their own purposes. The purpose of a cow is not to become steak, that is human intention toward them. The purposes of a cow, as best as I’ve been able to observe them, is to graze fresh grass, enjoy the feel of the sun on her back, and seek the company of her bovine friends.
Not that long ago some people were quite certain that it was the purpose of field negroes to bring in the harvest and field negroes were bred and kept accordingly. The Nazis employed the use of the Joy Division to maintain a herd of women used for sexual slavery. In the Pacific theatre of World War II, Japanese officers held similar stock of Korean women. If anyone considers these comparisons off-base, consider reading Eternal Trablinca by Charles Patterson or The Dreaded Comparison by Marjory Spiegel.
“Vegan is hard”
There was a time, decades ago, when becoming vegan was quite a bit more difficult. Today, it is really quite easy. Whether or not you are interested in making such a transition personally, a little understanding of the process couldn’t hurt, eh? A simple step-by-step guide is offered here:
http://www.vegforlife.org/howto.htm
In a similar misunderstanding, going vegan is often misrepresented as being expensive. Relying on a lot of prepared convenience foods such as ready-to-eat frozen meals or foods from the deli section of a market gets very expensive. Cooking at home from basic staple food is far more economical. This is true for both meat eaters and vegans. When I became vegetarian in 1988, I was pleased to see my grocery bill drop considerable; especially good news as I was very poor at the time. Lean ground beef goes for around $2.99/lb. Going veg replaces that with bulk dry beans, lentils, whole grains, etc. which (even organic) are typically less than $2 per lb. Beans and grains gain both weight and volume in the cooking process, while meat losses both weight and volume as some of the fat and moisture are cooked off.
“Killing animals humanely”
Some suggest that killing animals “humanely” is acceptable. It may be acceptable to people, but it is never acceptable to the animals, of course. I’ve seen slaughter. There are no volunteers. Each slaughter involve terror and suffering. It cannot be done humanely. Using the word “humane” in conjunction with animal slaughter is not just a practical impossibility, but also runs afoul of the simple dictionary definition of the word. Humane is defined as “characterized by tenderness, compassion and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed.” One cannot be simultaneously the cause or agent of suffering and plausibly claim to have sympathy for animal suffering. Were we having this conversation together in a real room and a then haul off and punch your should as hard as I can, would you believe me when I say, “Sorry about that sore shoulder”? Would you believe me to be sympathetic?
There is a pretty good website on the problem of so-called humane animal agriculture products here:
http://www.humanemyth.org/
Vegans and social justice
Some writers have wondered if vegans walk the walk on other matters of justice. All vegans I know have numerous concerns and commitments to a range of social justice issues. Vegan activists I’ve known have also been vocal proponents for women’s rights, fair trade, labor rights and racial equality. Vegans are frequently vocal opponents of war, militarism and the death penalty. Personally, I have been in the streets protesting multiple U.S. military adventures. I’ve stood overnight, in freezing rain, with a flickering candle in hand outside of prisons to let the world know that even the life of a man who has been found criminal (by an often suspect judicial system) is still a man with a life that is not mine to take. In standing up for peace and justice, I’ve been roughed-up by cops in Colorado, had my camera impounded in Kenya and been tossed into jail in Sudan.
Vegans are not perfect paragons of social values and do not claim to be, but we are also not just single-issue activists. Author Carol Adams makes a similar point here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-vegans/2011/03/31/AF1wbw0D_story_1.html
Why leather matters
I know this post is growing long, but here’s one last detail. While none of the vegans who have posted have suggest that leather-clad volunteers be banned, it is true that vegans avoid purchasing and wearing leather. The product is part of the slaughter process and one of the more profitable elements of it. It may be true, on the most literal level that the animal is already dead, but slaughter and taking hide both happen on the same disassembly line. Hide value accounts for about 10% of each head of cattle at a processing plant. Cattle ranchers are generally able to realize about a 3% net profit per head of cattle. Leather is not just a cast off byproduct, it is a crucial part of the cattle industry and could even be considered to be the difference between profit and loss. Also, from the vegan perspective, leather is fur. Fur may come from mink or chinchilla, rabbit or dog. Leather is simply processed cow fur.
Thanks again, everyone (vegan and meat-eater alike) for a sincere discussion.
Tanana, you make some good points. Change begins with us. And perhaps this dialogue – and Pets Alive taking this first step, having this dialogue (let alone, perhaps serving a delicious meal that just happens to not have any harmed animals on the menu) will start the wheels of change for so many staff, volunteers, supporters. The ripple effects can be huge. That is the only way change happens. That is what it is all about. Evolution does take a long time and I am so glad we are finding these points where we agree – because as friends of animals who have connected with them and bothered to get to know them, we already know we agree on something so important! Perhaps the board member who eats at Chik-a-fil has been engaged in that habit a long time, unconsciously (as so much eating is automatic habit, and even addictive: i.e. the recent studies that showed milkshakes engage the same part of the brain as cocaine does! And that the casomorphins in milk are basically natures highly addictive form of morphine/opiates, put there to quickly addict the calf so that he/she will return to the udder… but people can become addicted too, and we are literally food addicts.) – – perhaps that board member will read this discussion and have some new ideas, thoughts and impulses – – hopefully this will all be a catalyst for a little new change each day but if not, then that is the way it goes. No one is entering into your homes and demanding change – just hoping agreement will be found on as many levels as possible. That is how I got the concepts and info – – discussions like this many years ago, people who took the time to share info with me I had not previously had access to. Angles I had not considered. The work of doctors who did not have major corporations funding their studies.
I value this dialogue and appreciate your time and really understand the things you are saying. I hope you can come to see that the one meal served by an organization whose mission statement is to not harm animals would not be trying to impose or judge or force change on your personal life every day from here on in. I hope you will perhaps come to see it simply as what it is: a gift of healthy, compassion and insight. A time for animal lovers to come together and maximize their dollars for the cause of easing animal suffering… and some human suffering in the process, to boot.
I was one of the original PETA workers when we had real cases. I know it from the inside out I believe, as I feel I know HSUS.
I am a contributor and my heart leaps to see the number of dogs, especially the elderly who needed to be adopted out together, and were. Thank you forever for this.
Since the horridly corrupt pro-Happy Meat scums at HSUS who not only employ Vick but ordered other pitbull murders, misused money to see hundreds of their stallwart disaster resecuers turn on them, etc. does serve only vegan food while most of their employees I know are not vegans (they did abandon their once all vegan cafeteria sadly) I WOULD NOT BE A SUPPORTER of yours in this day and age if you did not serve an entirely vegan diet at your events. Come on, most people don’t even know they are eating vegan or not. Look at all the vegan wedding cakes, etc. You really owe it to yourselves to take it a step further at the very least here.
Re: feeding meat to the animals, probably you have to since I have worked for over 40 years on this topic and some rescued dogs can’t adapt–please don’t go the Peta was and believe you should feed your dog what you eat like spicey spaghetti. But there are vegan dog foods in cans and bags so give it a try if you can–I am more than all for it if dogs can tolerate it.
Re: taking money from the A–ok although I am throwing up thinking about it and Ed. AS LONG AS you are clear you are using them and not promoting them in any way–that they have money hanging from the rafters ala HSUS and you need that to save more animals. xo
One more thing–I gave to you because of your work and the pictures of
“farm” animals on your t-shirts. Your staff needs to be educated. You need to have vegan lecturers come in to help those who want to make the decision to go vegan. I did overnight, “cold turkey” as a young teen over 40 years ago because I had to read “The Jungle” for English class.
If you love one animal, you can’t murder another for your tastebuds.
Thanks, Kerry for hosting this lively, thoughtful and civil discussion. I have noticed that among the meat eaters who have commented here, most have not really addressed the core ethical question of an animal protection group serving up animals on a plate, but have spent rather more words on veganism in general and the lifestyle decisions vegans make. In reading these comments, I’ve seen some mistaken impressions about veganism, which I’d like to help clear up (Part one):
“People are made to thrive eating meat”
Our society’s epidemics of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes are pretty clear indicators that we, as a society, are not thriving by eating meat. Conversely, numerous clinical and demographic studies of a plant-based diet have shown that a vegetarian/vegan diet carries many individual and societal health benefits. Please consider reading The China Study by T. Colin Campbell or anything by Drs. Dean Ornish, John MacDougall, Neal Barnard, or Caldwell Esselstyn. Regarding what people are “made to” thrive on eating, consider viewing this video of a lecture by Dr. Milton Mills : http://video.vsh.org/Mills.html. If you’d rather cover the material in seven minutes, try this cartoon by Dan Piraro:
http://www.youtube.com/woodstocksanctuary#p/f/4/05zhL1YUd8Q
On vegan dogs
A few have suggested it is unnatural or perhaps unhealthy to make a companion dog live as a vegan. While we love our companion animals, there is not really much natural about the whole situation. I was once criticized for “imposing my values” on my dogs by making them vegan. Dogs were once wolves. Many thousands of years ago wolf pups were coaxed or kidnapped from their wolf pack and brought into human society. Since then they have been bred into hundreds of different shapes and sizes to comply with the work expectations or mere whims of humans. Dogs now live in human dwellings, following human rules, socializing with few (or even no) other dogs in accordance with human imposed rules. Yet somehow, by changing one food ingredient some drastic boarder has been crossed.
I’ve never seen a companion dog eat a “natural” diet. I’ve known no human guarding to a dog who opens the back door at dusk, pushes Fido out and says, “Good luck on the hunt. See you in the morning.” Rather, humans provide food for their dogs. For the great majority of dogs this means kibble of some sort or another. All kibble is processed, boiled, extruded and baked until it resembles nothing found in nature. The detail of whether the kibble includes some ingredient that was formerly another animal or not can hardly be said to transform kibble into a more or less natural food. Since “nature” has little to do with our companion dogs or their food, I choose to focus on my responsibility to my dogs. I am obliged to provide the with a complete, nutritious, healthful and palatable diet. This can be accomplished easily while sticking with my own vegan values. I feed V-Dog kibble as the base of their diet and augment that with a bit of fresh, home-cooked food. There are now several well-made commercially available vegan kibbles and canned foods on the market.
My current dogs enjoy robust good health. Both are at an ideal weight and have vigor, energy bright eyes and shinny coats. My previous generation of dogs lived to age 17 and 15 on a vegan diet. They both enjoyed great health well into old age.
Thanks, Kerry for hosting this lively, thoughtful and civil discussion. I have noticed that among the meat eaters who have commented here, most have not really addressed the core ethical question of an animal protection group serving up animals on a plate, but have spent rather more words on veganism in general and the lifestyle decisions vegans make. In reading these comments, I’ve seen some mistaken impressions about veganism, which I’d like to help clear up:
“People are made to thrive eating meat”
Our society’s epidemics of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes are pretty clear indicators that we, as a society, are not thriving by eating meat. Conversely, numerous clinical and demographic studies of a plant-based diet have shown that a vegetarian/vegan diet carries many individual and societal health benefits. Please consider reading The China Study by T. Colin Campbell or anything by Drs. Dean Ornish, John MacDougall, Neal Barnard, or Caldwell Esselstyn. Regarding what people are “made to” thrive on eating, consider viewing this video of a lecture by Dr. Milton Mills : http://video.vsh.org/Mills.html. If you’d rather cover the material in seven minutes, try this cartoon by Dan Piraro:
http://www.youtube.com/woodstocksanctuary#p/f/4/05zhL1YUd8Q
On vegan dogs
A few have suggested it is unnatural or perhaps unhealthy to make a companion dog live as a vegan. While we love our companion animals, there is not really much natural about the whole situation. I was once criticized for “imposing my values” on my dogs by making them vegan. Dogs were once wolves. Many thousands of years ago wolf pups were coaxed or kidnapped from their wolf pack and brought into human society. Since then they have been bred into hundreds of different shapes and sizes to comply with the work expectations or mere whims of humans. Dogs now live in human dwellings, following human rules, socializing with few (or even no) other dogs in accordance with human imposed rules. Yet somehow, by changing one food ingredient some drastic boarder has been crossed.
I’ve never seen a companion dog eat a “natural” diet. I’ve known no human guarding to a dog who opens the back door at dusk, pushes Fido out and says, “Good luck on the hunt. See you in the morning.” Rather, humans provide food for their dogs. For the great majority of dogs this means kibble of some sort or another. All kibble is processed, boiled, extruded and baked until it resembles nothing found in nature. The detail of whether the kibble includes some ingredient that was formerly another animal or not can hardly be said to transform kibble into a more or less natural food. Since “nature” has little to do with our companion dogs or their food, I choose to focus on my responsibility to my dogs. I am obliged to provide the with a complete, nutritious, healthful and palatable diet. This can be accomplished easily while sticking with my own vegan values. I feed V-Dog kibble as the base of their diet and augment that with a bit of fresh, home-cooked food. There are now several well-made commercially available vegan kibbles and canned foods on the market.
My current dogs enjoy robust good health. Both are at an ideal weight and have vigor, energy bright eyes and shinny coats. My previous generation of dogs lived to age 17 and 15 on a vegan diet. They both enjoyed great health well into old age.
“Farm animals are for food”
One writer sought to draw a distinction between companion animals and farm animals merely because humans call them either one or the other. While the adjectives differ, the animals themselves are much the same. Cats, cows, dogs, pigs, parrots, chickens and fish are all vertebrates with complex nervous systems and brains. They all think and feel. To separate them into companion or farm groups is to speak of human intentions toward them and does account for their intrinsic worth as being or their own purposes. The purpose of a cow is not to become steak, that is human intention toward them. The purposes of a cow, as best as I’ve been able to observe them, is to graze fresh grass, enjoy the feel of the sun on her back, and seek the company of her bovine friends.
Not that long ago some people were quite certain that it was the purpose of field negroes to bring in the harvest and field negroes were bred and kept accordingly. The Nazis employed the use of the Joy Division to maintain a herd of women used for sexual slavery. In the Pacific theatre of World War II, Japanese officers held similar stock of Korean women. If anyone considers these comparisons off-base, consider reading Eternal Trablinca by Charles Patterson or The Dreaded Comparison by Marjory Spiegel.
“Vegan is hard”
There was a time, decades ago, when becoming vegan was quite a bit more difficult. Today, it is really quite easy. Whether or not you are interested in making such a transition personally, a little understanding of the process couldn’t hurt, eh? A simple step-by-step guide is offered here:
http://www.vegforlife.org/howto.htm
In a similar misunderstanding, going vegan is often misrepresented as being expensive. Relying on a lot of prepared convenience foods such as ready-to-eat frozen meals or foods from the deli section of a market gets very expensive. Cooking at home from basic staple food is far more economical. This is true for both meat eaters and vegans. When I became vegetarian in 1988, I was pleased to see my grocery bill drop considerable; especially good news as I was very poor at the time. Lean ground beef goes for around $2.99/lb. Going veg replaces that with bulk dry beans, lentils, whole grains, etc. which (even organic) are typically less than $2 per lb. Beans and grains gain both weight and volume in the cooking process, while meat losses both weight and volume as some of the fat and moisture are cooked off.
“Killing animals humanely”
Some suggest that killing animals “humanely” is acceptable. It may be acceptable to people, but it is never acceptable to the animals, of course. I’ve seen slaughter. There are no volunteers. Each slaughter involve terror and suffering. It cannot be done humanely. Using the word “humane” in conjunction with animal slaughter is not just a practical impossibility, but also runs afoul of the simple dictionary definition of the word. Humane is defined as “characterized by tenderness, compassion and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed.” One cannot be simultaneously the cause or agent of suffering and plausibly claim to have sympathy for animal suffering. Were we having this conversation together in a real room and a then haul off and punch your should as hard as I can, would you believe me when I say, “Sorry about that sore shoulder”? Would you believe me to be sympathetic?
There is a pretty good website on the problem of so-called humane animal agriculture products here:
http://www.humanemyth.org/
Vegans and social justice
Some writers have wondered if vegans walk the walk on other matters of justice. All vegans I know have numerous concerns and commitments to a range of social justice issues. Vegan activists I’ve known have also been vocal proponents for women’s rights, fair trade, labor rights and racial equality. Vegans are frequently vocal opponents of war, militarism and the death penalty. Personally, I have been in the streets protesting multiple U.S. military adventures. I’ve stood overnight, in freezing rain, with a flickering candle in hand outside of prisons to let the world know that even the life of a man who has been found criminal (by an often suspect judicial system) is still a man with a life that is not mine to take. In standing up for peace and justice, I’ve been roughed-up by cops in Colorado, had my camera impounded in Kenya and been tossed into jail in Sudan.
Vegans are not perfect paragons of social values and do not claim to be, but we are also not just single-issue activists. Author Carol Adams makes a similar point here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-vegans/2011/03/31/AF1wbw0D_story_1.html
Why leather matters
I know this post is growing long, but here’s one last detail. While none of the vegans who have posted have suggest that leather-clad volunteers be banned, it is true that vegans avoid purchasing and wearing leather. The product is part of the slaughter process and one of the more profitable elements of it. It may be true, on the most literal level that the animal is already dead, but slaughter and taking hide both happen on the same disassembly line. Hide value accounts for about 10% of each head of cattle at a processing plant. Cattle ranchers are generally able to realize about a 3% net profit per head of cattle. Leather is not just a cast off byproduct, it is a crucial part of the cattle industry and could even be considered to be the difference between profit and loss. Also, from the vegan perspective, leather is fur. Fur may come from mink or chinchilla, rabbit or dog. Leather is simply processed cow fur.
Thanks again, everyone (vegan and meat-eater alike) for a sincere discussion.
Lots of good debate here but we are losing site of the point I think. The point is not if vegan and vegetarian diets are healthy or right for humans or not, or if it should be mandatory for all Pets Alive staff to be vegans (that will never be a requirement) but if all our functions should be vegetarian and if so why.
Again, while I am very interested in all the posts here and I am deeply impressed that they have been respectful and courteous (by and large) without resorting to personal attacks, many of the posters are clearly from other lists and websites and are not our members or supporters. I do like the input they have had here though and it has been a worthy conversation to follow and think about, but I will reiterate that our own members and supporters and donors are the most important factor to making this decision. Pets Alive has never been an organization to cow to pressure from others or tow the party line. We are independent thinkers and will act on what our own beliefs are.
However…. that is not to say that we aren’t wrong on occasion and we aren’t close minded to say that we won’t and don’t change our mind if/when proven wrong or shown a different way.
I would like to challenge you all though to think about the people that you love in your life. Are they meat eaters? Can people that eat meat still love animals? Can people that eat meat still contribute and donate and support animal causes? Are do you feel they are hypocrites?
In response to the people that thought I was holding their posts – I was not. It IS Easter weekend, and I was taking a few days off. The way the system works here is that if it is the very first time you have ever posted on a Pets Alive blog then you must be approved (to prevent spammers). So since many of you were “first timers” I had to manually approve your first post. Those people that have posted before can always post again after that first approval. So please do not feel I was holding back any posts. All have been released, but first timers need approval. No subterfuge here.
Thanks for putting up my posts. sorry for the repetition from a second emails address and thank you again for the discussion. regarding your questions, “think about the people that you love in your life. Are they meat eaters? Can people that eat meat still love animals?” Every Van Alstine family gathering is basically a non-stopp story swap about the charms of our respective companion animals. I do not doubt that my family do love their dogs and cats. However, sadly, this happy tails of animal charms are discussed over the carcasses of equally charming animals. though I have tried to effect change, I have been ineffective within my own family. On the other hand, numerous friends have given me credit as being an influence in moving them toward more compassionate lifestyles. Regarding my family members, however, I am profoundly disappointed. They profess to be “animal lovers.” How many animals do they love? If they can count the number of dogs and cats within their own households, and the number they are familiar with, fond of, or kind to through other friends and family, what number is that? a Dozen? perhaps two dozen at best? Yet how many to they condemn to terror and death at their tables? Based on USDFA per capita statistics, it is around 90 to 100 land-farmed animals each and uncounted water-dwelling animals (NOAA counts only tonnage). Can one claim to be an animal lover if loving but a couple species, and a couple dozen individuals while killing dozens upon dozens upon dozens of other animals? When my family members claim to “love” animals I reach to guard the veins of my throat of fear they may say the “love” me.
I have learned a lot from James Van Alstine over the years, and I am learning so much from this thoughtful dialogue. Thanks Kerry, Thanks Tanana, Thanks Jim, and all at Pets Alive.
People who say they love animals, do. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t more beings out there that we should open up to, and learn to love also, equally. It is about exposure. Most people have met cats and dogs, but the teachings we have all gotten (that farm animals are somehow different, don’t mind the treatment they get, etc.) is so ingrained, and so false, that it is astonishing.
Maybe this is arrogant, but I venture to say that being an “animal lover” is a continuing journey and for most of us, cats and dogs was just the beginning. They are awesome, but I have not met one animal out there that was not deserving of our protection, help and love. I wish you all happiness and joy on your journey. I recommend vegan stuff:
1) http://www.ppk.com – great site for recipes! These girls kick serious booty!
2) The blog called Vegan Yum Yum (awesome)
3) all the sites James V. gave have been doors for me that opened up whole new worlds of thought – I heartily recommend them too!
4) Any of the So Delicious coconut ice creams, creamers, milks, etc…
5) Daiya (tapioca based) cheese – a little sprinkle goes a long way on a vegan pizza
6 )www.veganessentials.com – for info on all the cool things out there for us…
7) Mooshoos shoe store in NYC or online for happy shoes not from animals….
Have FUN!
xo,R
I am sorry, but I see my quotes are being debated, but my questions are not answered. It seems to me that human beings have been eating meat for thousands of years. Hunting and eating. It seems also that the only people getting upset here are the vegans/vegetarians. Why must you feel you have to impose your lifestyle on others? Why do you feel as if you are superior than meat eaters? Eating 4oz portion of meat per day in Not unhealthy. It is the processed foods, excess sugar, etc. this country is consuming that is causing obesity. Natural, talk about natural. It is natural for carnivores to eat meat, my dogs eat meat! And yes, when I lived on a ranch, there were times my well fed dogs killed wild animals and ate them. Many people have their dogs strictly on a raw food (meat) diet. It is not my fault or the fault of the average American that Greed has caused the meat industry to care more about profits than humane treatment of animals and health of the consumers eating them.
I see nothing wrong with Pets Alive serving a Variety of foods at their fundraisers. It is their Choice. And Yes, you can be an animal lover and still eat meat. It’s not as if they are serving roast dog. Why is is okay for an Eagle to swoop down and kill and eat a rabbit, but I can’t eat a roast chicken?
Yes, raised and killed humanely. I have neighbors and friends who raise chickens for eggs. Those chickens live great lives. My friend raises beef cattle, the eat them, those cows live natural lives on acres of land, treated very well. Who gave us permission to eat animals. GOD, that is who. In the Bible. But I guess the vegans are not interested in that. There were very strict laws on caring for and killing of the animals, making sure they were treated humanely.
(do vegans/vegetarians believe in abortion? I would love to know that answer to that!)
Linda,
People have also been raping, murdering, and enslaving each other for thousands of years. Just because a behavior is traditional, or culturally sanctioned, doesn’t make it ethical.
You might be very interested in a book called _Dominion_ by Matthew Scully, who is a religious Christian, a political conservative (former Bush speechwriter) and an ethical vegan. He discusses animal treatment and use within the framework of the idea of “dominion” and I think it is a very valuable and moving book. I recommend it and I think you might find it interesting.
On the events tip: I think having vegan food at events is a good policy because it is actually the most mission-consistent AND the most inclusive: because everyone can enjoy vegan food but not everyone would agree about or enjoy having meat present. But when volunteers come and visit or bring their lunch, or someone wears leather shoes to a fundraiser they should be left alone. And I think that it’s easy to say “we are serving vegan food because it is the most inclusive way” without seeming like you are personally attacking an attendee’s choices. I’ve been vegan for 6 years, but when I ate meat, I never objected to a meatless meal as long as it was yummy (and there are SO MANY amazing options now!)
Linda, I don’t speak for all vegans, but I am 100% pro abortion. And the reason is entirely consistent with being vegan: I don’t believe that any animal or human exists to be the means or to be used by any other animal. An unwanted or unviable pregnancy constitutes this level of use. My body is mine, and I am the ultimate authority over what I do with it. It’s a strange irony that you complain about a meatless meal being some horrible burden forced upon you, yet you believe women you will never meet and have nothing to do with you should be forced to carry unwanted or untenable pregnancies to term.
An Eagle has no choice but to hunt for prey. People have choices on how to act and how we sustain ourselves.
Devery,No disrespect intended but you Are a hypocrite, you won’t kill an animal to eat but you will kill a human embryo and baby with a heartbeat, brain, legs arms, etc. I have many children and have seen the sonograms of them at only a few weeks gestation and guess what, they are ALIVE with a HEARTBEAT. Where is Their Choice? I have seen one of my children at 9 weeks in utero, with a head, brain, legs, beating heart, and at 11 weeks with arms and all his parts and he was dancing. This is still within in the time frame of legal abortion or should I say correctly Legal Killing of an unborn baby. You bring up the Christian aspect, well you can’t be both Christian and pro abortion. Again Hypocritical. Your pro abortion stance is unethical. Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense. I will continue to eat meat as long as it is allowed by God. (Bible scripture allows it) And I never complained about a meatless meal, that was other people. I eat very little meat. Yes, if you get pregnant, yes have the baby, and if you don’t want it, give it up for adoption. There are ways to prevent pregnancy. I will not continue to argue with you, it is pointless. All life is of value, not just the animals, but Human babies also. Each was created for a purpose.
Since the question has been put forth twice, I will volunteer that I am personally opposed to abortion. This is, I believe, ethically consistent with veganism, my opposition to unjust wars, and capital punishment. This is, of course, a contentious issues that divides many groups, including Catholics, Republicans and Feminists. As a former newspaper reporter and long-time social activists, I have met many intelligent, sincere, committed people on both sides of the abortion issue. I have come to believe that if much of the passion, conviction and energy invested in fighting the politics of abortion were instead invested in addressing the underlying social and economic causes that compel women to chose abortion, there would be far fewer abortions.
Regarding what the Christian scripture tells us about diet, it is true that vegetarianism is not clearly commanded, directly, by the Bible. At no point is Jesus quoted as saying, “To follow me you must leave off the eating of flesh.” In the absence of a definitive ban on the eating of flesh, is the practice of a vegetarian diet a topic that should be taken up by Christians and Christian churches?
Many social norms of generations past are now considered contrary to Christian faith. Over the centuries, such now-abhorred practices were tolerated and practiced by Christians. As some Christians and progressive elements of society questioned such practices, those who wished to continue them sought justification in the Bible. Among these social justice issues are slavery, rape of women captives of war and capital punishment. Contemporary Christians now clearly reject all these, yet the Bible does not formally condemn them.
In each of these cases Christians determined that it was a matter of Christian justice to pursue social progress even if the Bible does not clearly condemn a specific practice. Why? In short they saw it as their calling to follow the path of compassion and peace that Jesus offers. There are but a handful of words attributed to Jesus and the first of his followers. Clearly, most of the ethical and moral dilemmas modern people confront are not directly addressed by scripture. Therefore, we must examine the example of Jesus and constantly ask, “What would Jesus do?”
With the passage of time, issues once overlooked became a part of Christian social teaching. The twentieth century brought considerable advancements in the treatment of workers, race relations and the status of women; all of these reforms were driven by a call to Christian justice. Today, other issues are emerging as new frontiers in Christian ethics. Among them are biomedical/genetic issues, homosexuality, environmentalism and animal rights.
Emerging knowledge of the intelligence and emotional complexity of animals raises questions regarding what constitutes a just relationship between animals and humans. Modern factory farming processes provide images that stand in stark, undeniable conflict with a Christian ideal of the Good Shepherd practicing responsible stewardship. As animal rights proponents build an increasingly powerful case against animal agriculture’s impact on the environment, human health, and animal welfare, it is becoming increasingly clear that this topic has a place in the social justice considerations of Christians.
Animals are common in the Bible. The Jews, early Christians and indeed all the people of the ancient world were familiar with animals and experienced them routinely in their lives. It is therefore not surprising that animals occur often, both literally and metaphorically, throughout the Bible. Volumes have been written on animals and how a Christian faith informs human relations with them, including a growing library of titles by Rev. Andrew Linzey (several titles), Norm Phelps, Dominion of Love and Matthew Scully, Dominion, to name just a few.
There are numerous moments from Genesis to Revelations that illuminate the human animal relationship. In Genesis, we are offered a vision of paradise. Eden meets all human needs and we are seen, at first, in perfect peace with God and all creation. In Eden at peace, God prescribes a vegan world: “See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food, and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food.” (Genesis 1: 29-31)
Just a moment before this, God gives humans “dominion” over creation (Genesis 1:28). The granting of dominion is often sited as a defense of the practice of eating flesh. Since the vegan diet prescription immediately follows the granting of dominion, clearly God did not intend that the right of dominion should include consumption of his animals, blessed with the same “breath of life” we generally translate to mean “soul.”
Dominion is often taken to include a sort of superiority. The dominion of Genesis is the cornerstone of a deeply entrenched sense of hierarchy that places God at the top of creation, humans below God and all other creatures beneath humans. In light of the peace that comes with the creation of the Edenic order and the sorrow and toil that follow the Fall, it seems unlikely that dominion was intended to convey superiority. After all, employers hold dominion over employees, yet who today would believe that a CEO is superior to a worker or a citizen in the order of God’s creation? The divine right of kings to govern, the ideology of a master race and innumerable other notions of human hierarchy have been justly relegated to the trash heap of history.
It is a unique and unsupportable conclusion that biblical dominion should include the right to eat animals. Heads of state have dominion over citizens yet few would suggest that gives a leader the right to kill citizens at will. Such leaders are considered tyrants, not merely exercising their right of dominion. Parents clearly hold dominion over children, but society frowns on infanticide. Strangely, in this one use of dominion found in Genesis, the word’s meaning is extended to permit the enslavement, intensive confinement, manipulation, mutilation and murder of animals. Despite the lack of any ethical or practical parallel, most people still cling to the unsupportable belief that human dominion over creation excuses the killing of animals for flesh.
If the dominion granted in Genesis is fairly examined in the context of the Jewish and Christian faith traditions of love and compassion, then enslavement and slaughter of animals must be an anathema. Rather than excusing meat consumption, a belief in dominion should more rightly be read as a call to compassion and responsible stewardship of creation.
The Fall, as told in Genesis, provides an insight into the trouble with humanity’s false assertion of superiority over the rest of God’s creation. The fruit of the story was held out in temptation under the pretext that through it humans could obtain a higher status. Of course, this purported improvement does not follow. Humans fail in this proud attempt to elevate their status above the rest of creation and are instead labeled sinners and cast out of Eden. We fall. No other animal in God’s creation falls. They all remain in a state of grace with God. Our original sin, then, was to think that we could become better than, superior to, the rest of creation. This may shed light on the nature of original sin. Inevitably, sinful behavior begins with a person or people, in some way, placing themselves above their station.
Dominion does not make humans superior to creation, but rather calls us to a great calling to meet the world’s needs with responsible stewardship, consideration and kindness befitting this gift from God.
Genesis also provides the most frequently cited permission for eating flesh. As the sins resulting from the Fall spread and consume the souls of humans, God eventually is compelled to clean house. Noah and his family are spared and take with them on the ark all God’s creatures. After the flood, the first thing Noah does is build an altar and offer an animal sacrifice. There is a curious decision. Why would God, who instructed Noah on how to spare the animals, wish Noah to kill one once safety is reached? God tolerates the act, but levies a punishment for the infraction. As if speaking to a spoiled child who disobeys at the very moment of release from discipline, God tells Noah: “Dread fear of you shall come upon all the animals of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon all the creatures that move about on the ground and all the fishes of the sea; into your power they are delivered. Every creature that is alive shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants.” (Genesis 9: 2-3) Permission to eat flesh is granted, but clearly God was displeased with this development and spoke of a very steep moral price for this bit of flesh. God was angered. This could have been a moment of joyous reunion between humans and God, but instead it becomes one in which humans are both blessed and cursed. In modern speech God may well have said, “Fine then. Do whatever you’re going to do. Eat my animal friends. I won’t stop you, but it will cost you dearly.” Perhaps we pay this cost today in our alienation from nature, the described fear of humans shown by animals and the health and welfare toll that eating animal flesh exacts in the form of heart disease and cancer.
The book of Isaiah also shows that God does not welcome the killing of animals and again strives to lead humans back to a just society in which peace will reign not just among humans but to all creatures.
“What care I for the number of your sacrifices? says the Lord. I have had enough of whole-burnt rams and fat of fatlings; In the blood of calves, lambs and goats I find no pleasure. When you come to visit me, who asks these things of you? … Though you pray the more, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood! Wash yourselves clean!” (Isaiah 1: 11-12, 15)
God makes it pretty clear that whatever reasons humans may put forward for killing animals, pleasing him is not the result. In both this passage from Isaiah and in Jesus’ cleansing of the temple it is important to note that all animal flesh consumed by Jews went through a prescribed legal practice of ritual sacrifice. To the Jewish mind of the time, condemning ritual killing of animals at temple was to condemn all killing of animals.
On the other hand, Isaiah holds out hope of a better day. Even in a time of sin and sorrow, the promise of peace, justice and a renewed relationship between humans and God is encouraged and promised.
“Justice shall be the band around his waist, and faithfulness a belt upon his hips. Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; The calf and the young lion shall browse together, with a little child to guide them. The cow and the bear shall be neighbors, together their young shall rest; the lion shall eat hay like the ox. The baby shall play by the cobra’s den, and the child lay his hand on the adder’s lair. There shall be no harm or ruin on all my mountain; for the earth shall be filled with knowledge of the Lord, as water covers the sea.” (Isaiah 11: 5-9)
Isaiah provides a peaceful picture of a return to Edenic tranquility, but is this only metaphor or is it actually possible? Will lions subsist on hay? No human could claim to know, but there may be a clue at hand. Many vegans provide a diet free of animal products to their companion dogs and cats. When managed responsibly (as anyone’s diet should be) vegan cats and dogs enjoy good health and long lives.
Jesus as animal rights activist?
Prior to beginning his active ministry, Jesus was influenced by or a part of an observant Jewish community known as the Essenes. This sect was known for its strict adherence to Jewish law and teaching. Their practices were strict, yet guided by a spirit of truth rather than of superficial observance. This may have put Jesus at odds with the more mainstream practitioners of Judaism in his day. This background provides deeper understanding of New Testament incidents such as Jesus’ discussions with the priests and the Pharisees. Christians who eat meat often cite Jesus’ status as an observant Jew as evidence that he would have eaten meat at Passover, even if at no other time. This assertion overlooks the Essene perspective on the topic. Rooted in God’s admonishment of sacrifice and slaughter described in Isaiah, the Essenes declined the eating of flesh.
There is much to be considered in the brief incident of Jesus’ cleansing of the temple (Matthew 21: 12, Mark 11: 15-16, Luke 19: 45). It speaks to matters of corruption, pretense and the coming of a faith open to all rather than only those of worldly means. Amid these lessons, it also reveals something of Jesus’ attitude toward animals. By driving out the animal sellers, Jesus effectively halted the sale and slaughter of animals on the eve of the biggest feast in the largest city in the Jewish world. It was an act of animal liberation on a vast scale. Imagine halting the slaughter of turkeys before Thanksgiving in the United States.
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus is only described as personally eating an animal on one occasion. This occurs after the resurrection when Jesus consumes one small morsel of fish to prove to his disciples that that he is alive in the flesh, and not a mere apparition. Some people believe that Jesus was a vegetarian, with the morsel of fish a necessary anomaly. It is impossible to determine if Jesus was, in his time on earth, a practicing vegetarian. It may rather be more significant to ask, “What would Jesus eat today?”
Meat production today contributes to environmental degradation, worsens global hunger, and is rife with labor abuse. It relegates animals to intensive confinement, industrialized brutality, torturous transport conditions and traumatic, painful slaughter. It is hard to imagine that, in light of what modern meat production has become, Jesus would himself dine on the flesh of his fellow creations of God.
Regarding the “tradition” of consuming meat. As has previously been pointed out, tradition and justice are two separate matters. Consider the anthropology of meat eating. Clearly humans have conducted animal agriculture of thousands of years and hunted long before that. On an evolutionary scale, these are brief and recent developments, driven by dire needs (think Ice Age) which are no longer daily concerns. To become serious, frequent meat-eaters, humans needed language (probably both sign and verbal), advanced tools – such as a spear (constructed from three distinct, manufactured components) and command of fire. On an evolutionary scale, we had long before arrived as humans and these are late adaptations that are end notes to our long evolving road. Please also consider visiting the Dr. Milton Mills and Dan Piraro links cited in earlier posts.
Regarding the repeated use, by some above, of the word “humane” in connection with the practice of raising and slaughtering animals, let me reiterate that this is a fundamental misuse of language. The end result of slaughter is at odds with the actual dictionary definition of humane. To suppose otherwise is just Mad Hatter English. the Mad Hatter, you will recall said to Alice: “Words mean what I say they mean.” It was absurd madness in Wonderland and it remains so now.
Linda,
Clearly we disagree on a many number of issues. But who is the hypocrite here? A pig has a heartbeat, legs, and arms. Pigs at the age they are slaughtered are at least as intelligent as dogs, some estimate they are roughly as intelligent as a 2 to 3 year old human child. So it’s okay to confine and then slaughter a pig just because you want to eat it, which seems pretty selfish to me, but it’s wrong for a woman to terminate a pregnancy in which the fetus has no life separate from her, which can adversely affect her life, health, job, future fertility, vision, you name it? Or even if she desperately wants to bear a child but the pregnancy goes wrong, and termination is a sad but necessary choice? Please, spare me. A pig isn’t growing inside you and feeding off your vital organs to develop — it’s you who pay someone to torture, raise and slaughter the pig so you can eat it. Also, if you actually read my post, I’m not saying I’m Christian, because I’m not. But I mentioned that there are Christians who are ethical vegans and Matthew Scully’s book is a really wonderful one. I disagree with him on some of his points but it is worth reading.
However, this thread is about vegan/ veggie meals at Pets Alive sponsored events. I said my piece on that issue, and am very glad Kerry put forward this post. (I wish I wasn’t paying off 10K of dog surgery and could attend the Fur Ball, veggie options or no!)
Thanks Jim. Unbelievably impressive and a lot of food for thought.
I would say to Linda that we are trying to stay on-topic. No one is “imposing” views and veering towards dissecting every aspect of life from religion to abortion is going to far out in the field. As far as I can see, this dialogue was an open invitation on a public blog. Pets Alive is kindly hosting an educational debate about the issue that has been understandably raised by colleagues in the animal welfare community: should an animal rescue serve the unfortunate UN-rescued animals on the plates at their benefit? This is the one question that needs to be answered.
What we choose to put on your plates is the front lines of where animal cruelty in society is accepted, condoned, funded, encouraged, and played out. This is a concept worth sharing and discussing.
We need to keep perspective: it is the animals who are imposed upon by this dinner decision, not people. Let’s not lose sight of what suffering is defined as i.e. Missing meat in one meal (while enjoying delicious vegan culinary fabulousness) or being stuck in a veal crate because you were unfortunate enough to be born the son of a cow used for milk for people?
While this dialogue is upsetting some and making them feel imposed upon – although that is not the intention – – I firmly believe that for others it will definitely be a light-filled gateway (as such a dialogue was for me and others here, years ago) and may very well open up a lot of profound and positive thought, questioning and changes. So, again, must thank Pets Alive for fostering this open discussion.
My interpretation of the Bible. I believe God’s will for us is to be Vegan if only our circumstsances allow it. The Bible depicts a peaceful world at creation and at the end of time. God found everything in Eden ‘very good,’ and gave all animals and humans a vegetarian world(Genesis 1:29-30). Several prophesies such as Isaiah 11:6-9, foresee a return to this vegetarian world where the wolf, lamb, lion, cow, snake and little child co-exist peacefully.” Christian Vegetarians believe we should strive towards the peaceable kingdom Isaiah envisioned. Christian vegetarians believe we should try to follow Christ’s mission, expressed in the Lord’s prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
When I am being accused of picking and choosing biblical verses; my response is, because the Bible is open to such a wide range of interpretation, all Christians pick and choose certain biblical verses that support their believe system. The God I pray to is about love, peace, and compassion for all creation. In the past people used the Bible to justify genocide, slavery, segregation, and the oppression of women. We now understand this was a misuse of the Bible and its true intent. The same is true for eating meat.
Its been proven that humans thrive better on a plant-based diet:
The American Dietetic Association is the world’ s largest organization of food and nutrition professionals has states vegan diets, if well-planned, are healthful and nutritious for adults, infants, children and adolescents and can help prevent and treat chronic diseases including heart disease, cancer, obesity and diabetes. http://www.eatright.org/Media/content.aspx?id=1233&terms=vegetarian+diet
Pets Alive has so graciously accommodated everyone in their fund raising events, by offering alternate meals to those who’s consciences object to the consumption of meat or animal products. They do not have to do this, but they choose to show kindness and consideration to those who have made this decision in their lives.
Instead of you saying ‘thank you’, you have taken it upon yourselves to criticize and condemn them and others, ‘oh, how dare they not insist that everyone eat vegan for the event’. You claim it is not consistent with their mission. Their mission is No Kill Animal Shelters. They give 100% to that and spreading that message of No Kill Nation around. Their mission is not “let us become a vegan nation” If you are offended by their choice of food being served, send in a donation and don’t attend. Use you energies to focus on stopping vivisection. Let Pets Alive do what they do best. Serving meat at one of their functions certainly is not inconsistent with their mission, remember it is No Kill Shelters for dogs and cats (yes I am aware they have other animals there).
I am not an overly religious person, but I do see the hypocrisy in ‘I won’t kill a pig for food’ but ‘I will kill a human baby in the womb because it is not convenient for me to have a child at this time’
And to the gentleman who brings up scripture, it was Yahweh himself who commanded the animal sacrifices at the alter, not the people. Jesus’s sacrifice was the end of those animal sacrifices. As a Jewish man, Jesus participated in the Passover meal which included an animal sacrifice, the meal included the eating of meat with unleavened bread.In the new testament permission was given ‘to eat anything in the meat market’.
I do feel that Linda, Kerry and Tanana have very valid points and their reasoning is very astute. And to personally keep attacking one of them is not only unkind but outright rude because their decision for their diets and why differ from yours. And yes, I do eat meat and do not feel badly for it. I did not cause the greed and selfishness in the Factory Animal Farming industry nor do I approve of their treatment of the animals. Go write letter to them and your congressmen and leave the fund raising events and menu to those who run them.
Thank you.
I don’t think I’m attacking anyone. I’m giving my point of view on this topic. You can watch ‘Farm to Fridge’ http://www.meatvideo.com/ to view what happens to most of God’s animals that are used for food. If you agree that God is against factory farming because of the cruelty that happens to his animals, so then you can conclude that God is against Christians eating animal products that comes from factory farms which is the majority of animal products. The way animals are treated today makes a mockery of God’s love for them.
Hi there Robert – No one is attacking. We are all trying to share info that is very hard to absorb, actually. Kerry and Pets Alive are wonderful! And again, you are going way off topic from the specific question and logic involved. Your choice of religion is personal, but this is a publicly funded non-profit devoted to reducing cruelty to animals.
But while on that subject, there are actually many ancient faiths and religions of the world that believe if one takes a suffering animal into yourself, one takes on all of that animal’s suffering, sickness, and emotional turmoil. Consider the veal calf taken from it’s mother. That turmoil is in that calf until its 6 months of life are over. While I am not religious, this is something I contemplate daily.
I found two links that might be really cool for those interested in embracing the subject at hand with open heart and positive energy! –
1) The great law professor Gary Francione on the difference between the Animal Rights Movement and the Animal Welfare movement:
http://friendsnotfood.com/showthread.php?265-Gary-Francione-Talks&p=3672#post3672
And also – – truly eye-opening, is this film that is hitting NY area theaters in the next days… FORKS OVER KNIVES. I saw a screening in Albany, and it is powerful stuff! Just watch the trailer – I hope you will be intrigued as I was! These doctors actually don’t really have any animal rights agenda, they are just long-time study-leaders of human health issues. I met Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn – whatta gent!
http://forksoverknives.com/
peace!
R
Oops – correct link for that Gary Francione video that is really cool:
http://vimeo.com/23001319
(the other link was a really great animal rescue chat/message board, Friends Not Food, where I had also posted the Francione video link. Anyone can join that group if you want to – it is for people who love all animals and want to learn how to help as many of them as possible! It was started by a really nice trucker and his wife who went vegan after coming to take tours and volunteer at Woodstock Sanctuary.)
Whoa, religious debate, NOT going there and not on point.
Linda, well said in comment number 41.
Jim, I recognize, respect, and agree with your point about so called “humane killing”. I am not talking about that. I am talking about humane killing that is actually humane. I don’t believe that is innately contradictory as you do. Case in point, almost everyone agrees that killing an animal that is suffering and can’t get well is humane. Obviously, that is NOT the same thing as killing for food, but you get my point. There ARE circumstances in which killing is humane. We disagree on what those circumstances are.
Robert, the EXACT point I would have made about humane killing.
Rebecca, thank you for remaining courteous and through love trying to enlighten me (I’d love having an actual conversation, I hate typing and I enjoy people who disagree with me intelligently. I can’t learn anything from people who think exactly the way I do). Also, thank you for recognizing that there are many ways in which we agree. I’ll give you one more. ONE meal shouldn’t and doesn’t make a significant difference to me. I said I’d be disappointed, not that I wouldn’t attend because of a meal.
However, I am not everybody and I don’t speak for everybody. And we are not discussing “one meal”. We are discussing a principle. Kerry asked “whether PA functions should be vegetarian and why”.
On to the actual topic. I reiterate that meat eaters vastly outnumber vegetarians and vegans put together. Veganism is NOT the “most inclusive”. Like it or not, fundraising is POLITICAL. I applaud Kerry’s integrity and do NOT even slightly suggest that her decisions are not principled. I KNOW that they are. I also know she’s an extremely intelligent savvy lady. It’s a simple point, really. It’s awfully hard to get money from people after you criticize them. And you can be as subtle as you want but some folks recognize criticism even when it is subtle.
Having vegan and vegetarian choices at functions is great. I’m all for that. Hell, have a booth and open a few eyes. But don’t shove it down people’s throats. Pardon the pun. Yes, people can support multiple causes but institutions dependent on charity cannot afford to stray very far in the political arena. And it IS political. The discussion we are currently having demonstrates this point perfectly. And it has the potential to be divisive. Again, this discussion proves that. I personally think not eating meat and eating meat are both moral valid choices.
Jim, I agree it CAN be a choice but I don’t think it always is. You can tell me veganism is cheap until you’re blue in the face. Cheap is not free and some people can only afford free. Forgive my presumption but I don’t think you are one of those folks. You sound too intelligent and too well educated. My brothers and I learned to hunt with a traditional bow and compound bow because we couldn’t afford the nickle (I’m guessing, I don’t actually remember) that a bullet cost. Arrows could be reused.
Before I get angry comments, I do not hunt, even though I was trained. But I do not condemn hunting. I also don’t condemn fishing but I don’t do that either. I don’t often eat meat. I wouldn’t eat meat at all if I had to kill it myself. I sometimes wonder if we hurt broccoli and are just too stupid to detect and know it. It’s ironic that I’m defending the meat eaters. I am not a representative sample. Additionally I said earlier that I would not debate the morality of eating meat because I thought both choices were valid but here I am. This side seemed to need help. But let’s keep in mind that morality is only tangentially relevant.
Vegans would like to make it the central issue but it isn’t. The issue is whether or not PA should go vegetarian at functions and why. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I understand correctly, vegans would like PA to step up and be a moral leader to save animals, all animals, and the natural extension of PA’s mission would be to embrace and endorse veganism. Following that reasoning, one could say that PA should start taking in orphan children. People are animals much as some like to say we are not. I am not being facetious, just making my point very clear with the extreme.
My point is this. PA has to work within the reality of our society. They can’t save all animals no matter how much they try. PA can’t bite off more than they can chew and still survive. Sorry about the repeated food related language. I must be getting hungry. People come to the fundraisers for a variety of reasons but most of those people eat meat. Alienating them is not an option. The best argument I’ve heard so far for going vegetarian or vegan at the events is the success of other organization’s vegetarian or vegan events. My response to that is that PA is not HSUS and may not have the same support base. What works for them may not work for us. People can be fickle.
I have to say this because I don’t think I’m getting through. Vegans (not all of you), I’m sorry but how can you not see that your very existence is a condemnation of eating meat. You may not be judgmental but you have judged, even if only for yourself. You have concluded that eating meat is wrong and cruel. Some meat eating people will feel judged and found unworthy. They will not feel welcome at events that reinforce that feeling. It concerns me that in attempting to save more animals PA could actually save less if they lose the support of the meat eating community.
Last, I don’t feel attacked in this discussion and I hope no one feels attacked by me. It is certainly not my intention.